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asciilifeform: phf: i was aiming for 3 basic things : 1) recursively getaddr entire reachable btc net, perhaps erry hour or so 2) find trb-compat (i.e. 'services' == 1 ) non-pseudos (i.e. if i pull block hash out of a hat, he quickly gives correct block) and eventually 3) get inv's and monitor tx propagations.
asciilifeform: worx ok with trb. but heathens do all kinds of weird things, throw up various garbage in place of e.g. getaddr answer
mircea_popescu: which is why all the "oh noes advertise ip" bla bla machinery is always a sign of idiocy on the part of "designer". trbi needs "ip backflow" like i need power rangers in my living room.
asciilifeform: it's a 2edged blade, as it would be a great temptation to 'light client' idjits to parasitize on trb. but would make for easy litmus.
asciilifeform: btw trb could in principle be made entirely distinguishable, if we were to permit asking for a ~tx~ in 'inv' command ( currently prohibited , because prb nuked indexing , but could be brought into trb with no ill effect aside from some cpu cost )
asciilifeform: re upstack -- as it happens, 'trb-compat' is pretty easy to distinguish mechanically -- anybody who has 'services' field != 1, aint trb-compat.
asciilifeform: individual display only of trb-compat folx.
asciilifeform: speaking of trb, i dusted off an old conveyor item, phuctor-like www proggy that maps out noadez ( you give it ips, and it connects to'em, then issues 'version' and 'getaddr', and builds a graph )
asciilifeform: lol, could even describe e.g. trb this way
asciilifeform: Mocky: 'aggressive' trb vs regular, is just about 'night and day'. i also have ben_vulpes's 'super aggression' item lined up for test.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: keccak is exactly the right pill for trbi, and iirc mircea_popescu was actually 1st to point this out, yrs ago
asciilifeform: Mocky: keep in mind that 'aggressive' trb syncs in (pessimistically) 2-3 weeks. so not much point in throwing around whole balls of blox.
asciilifeform: ( all you need is that little bash , and a reasonably recent trb )
asciilifeform: mod6, jurov : trb ml down ??
asciilifeform: diana_coman: erry so often i try an' search for some symptom that heathens know of trb etc., ~never found
mircea_popescu: phf we've all ranted about it at some time or another. needless to say replacement rsatron does not include idiotic half-baked state machines. much like trb-i doesn't include "accounts" nonsense.
asciilifeform: so nao moar apparent when friction at the interface of trbdom an' heathendom
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: something to this; 'aggression' removed most (not all) instances of trb 'sitting with mouth open'
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in trb observatory... nuffin on surface. but! loox like all of trb planet stuck on 544911 ( heathens : 544928 )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-07#1859231 << will need to be instructed re basic trb doctrine
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i suspect idea was 'make him manually gpg --verify ... and then press by hand-gnupatch a la pre-v trb, better than signed tar'. but i'ma let phf clarify.
asciilifeform: rereading is great, but it isn't cost-free. if i sit down to reread trb , i'ma have to come back in a ~year
asciilifeform: i'm quite reluctant to sink substantial moneys into heathen isps, for obv. reason. in that thread was thinking of 'cash and carry' modest item, strictly for moar-trb.
asciilifeform: ( possibly he even has it nao, i recall seeing a trb noad running from ru not too long ago )
asciilifeform: here is also where i must note that , while i'd like moar / moar-dispersed trb nodez, my time budget for trying to talk sense into remote orcs is quite limited atm
asciilifeform: 'Asciilifeform ran the experimental patch bringup in trb node zoolag' << bahahahawaaat
asciilifeform: aaand i'ma skip this morning's 'in trb observatory...' , it's a straight line of 'ACCEPTED' from known trb people
asciilifeform: sooo if anybody ( mircea_popescu ? diana_coman ? ) knows of some place that 1) isn't complete shit 2) doesn't have a trb noad living there yet -- plox to write in.
asciilifeform: i've been thinking i oughta conjure up moar trb nodez, but erry time i sit down and look to do it, end up thinking 'why give money to heathen derps'. but on other hand it dun do much good to put 9000 nodes all in pizarro. but to which heathen can give moneys without retching..
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in trb observatory, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_2_moar_ProcessBlock.txt << caught up..
asciilifeform: meanwhile in the trb observatory, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cMfST/?raw=true << restarted zoolag, and confirms my earlier hypothesis -- 'bastards' from friendlies are simply when they throw their latest block blindly at each peer, without concern for who actually can eat it, and who cannot. shitoshi's shit protocol.
asciilifeform: i dun see why it would apply to trb tho, trb must have write or it cannot store blox.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856377 << well, the way i read the 1-2-3-4 progression from above is that "it is focused but not limited to trb, supposed to outreach from it".
asciilifeform: as i observed just today and on 9000 occasions, even the simple thing of 'why can a trb node be 100 blox behind a fellow trb peer' is not yet licked
asciilifeform: fwiw i see my own work on trb, to date, as a ~defensive~ affair, i.e. to make whatever fixes req'd to keep the thing working precisely as it worked in 2009, in the face of the very real and continuing network rot / 9000 forms of active attack from heathendom to date
asciilifeform: way i see it, there's plenty of sharp edges left on good old trb, and any new work ought not to subtract from the very real remaining work of smoothing'em out.
asciilifeform: errything done to date, related to trb at least tangentially.
asciilifeform: ( and imho all of the people qualified to work on trbi, are already here, they dun need to see duck races to be persuaded to come... )
asciilifeform: i could even see an argument that the charter could permit 'trb-i' work under the flag of tbf. but that's as far as it goes, per my reading
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856296 << i gotta admit that i dun see point in 'growth for growth's sake'. there was already prb 'foundation' for ~that~. tbf is for maintaining & improving (constructively! there's plenty of actual ills to cure, that dun reduce to 'not enuff heathen notoriety' ) trb.
asciilifeform doesn't use any fancy redirection-to-sys-logger for trb log, and doesn't intend to
asciilifeform: incidentally, does anyone remember wtf happened to the 'log timestamps' patch for trb ? who wrote it, and how come it never made it into the flagship tree ?
asciilifeform: and yea it's http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks/tree/bitcoin/src/main.cpp#L1362 that trb (and for that matter heathens, but fuck'em) doesn't respond to sanely.
asciilifeform: i'm pretty curious why a trb node is able to answer pfrom->PushGetBlocks(pindexBest, uint256(0)); with ANYTHING other than the immediately-missing next block, when it is known to have it.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in trb observatory : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_1_ProcessBlock.txt << anatomy of a 'noad behind'. whole night zoolag fed nuffin but 'bastards', and incl. by friendlies, in continuation of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856264
mircea_popescu: i did not say "infect with trb".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: could've sworn we had the 'infect with trb' thread ..
asciilifeform: meanwhile in asciilifeform's trb observatory : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SEy0g/?raw=true << 'bastards' emitted by ( among others ) friendlies. really is imho bug, trb ought not to send bastards to trb.
asciilifeform: as for others, i dun recall who is 149.56.19.79 but iirc also trb
asciilifeform: the 1 gotcha is that most trb-related items afaik constrained by scarcity of skilled l1 hands, not coin as such
asciilifeform: right nao we only have blox because chinese d00dz i've never heard of, and dun expect to, run ~trb-compat proggies. i've nfi if trb per se helps this state of affairs to continue, but for so long as it continues, oughta at least not interfere, imho.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun propose to 'help' heathens somehow against will. but imho anyffig that in any way makes trb noad harder to stand up than strictly must -- yields terrain to enemy.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as for 'premium' noad access, recall how the mircea_popescu 'trbi' thread was born. ( classical btc offers no sweet pill for how to reward node operators. any attempt to charge for 'gets mined faster' inevitably reduces to a game the miners can themselves win, cutting out middlemen )
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i see no gain from putting any obstacle in front of anyone, heathen, chinese, martian, good, evil, who wants to run trb .
asciilifeform: and yes at least 1 cretin 'stole' trb. what did it get him.
asciilifeform: can't replace the thing with 'republic only' trbi , not without some yet-unfathomed breakthrough, or, idk, if mircea_popescu takes over brazil, or, whoknows, catastrophic chernobyl that fully demolishes the classical btc net
asciilifeform: and yes if there were some magical way to get errybody who benefits from tbf and ergo working btc net, to put into the piggy, it'd be splendid, thing could fund even such things as flotillae of noads, or even trbi dev, etc, whoknows. but there is no magic. and it is a lucky thing that tbf in fact has the coin with which to do the bare minimum and host patches ( not on shitazon! jurov ! ) and handful of reliable nodes.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << to the extent ( and it is a ~substantial~ extent ) that a healthy btc net relies on ~widely~ available sane client, incl yes even for miners, to limit in any way the distribution of trb src is imho catastrophically stupid idea.
asciilifeform: to date i haven't conceived of how to make trb into a subscription service ( my 1 attempt at the problem was the 'wires' item ) but this should not discourage others
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: birth of trb was 100% powered by 'muscle-powered v' of gpg-signed patches, recall.
asciilifeform: without rock-solid trb, there is no bitcoin , at least not in any shape i'd particularly care to be connected with.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc it was kinda chartered with carte blanche, "do whatever, just do". the way history flew it worked out as a sort of "holder of trb project" pretty much yes.
asciilifeform: ( imho -- it's a preservation proj , to keep the thing going until trbi etc )
asciilifeform: and imho last thing trb needs is '9000 new idea'
asciilifeform: mod6: ftr i'm 100% satisfied with your work as trb chair
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: currently not clear to me how there'd be less work if trb were 'mod6 proj' instaed of 'foundation'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i disagree, btw, that 'epsilon', march-current is when the aggression thing was deployed & tested to exhaustion, and gave proper ~realtime block propagation for 1st time since trb birth
mircea_popescu: considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak".
mircea_popescu: the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already.
asciilifeform: this experiment will work 9000x better once there's several trb folx other than asciilifeform doing it, cuz learning 'block x came from... this-here trb noad' dun tell me much, it'd be useful to know where ~he~ got it, etc
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers ! trb node zoolag will be down for approx 20min for experimental patch bringup, starting 5min from nao.
asciilifeform: even if seems that 100% of 2/3-frag packets make it through in 'laboratory' conditions, still gotta remember that the frag reassembly buffer is the ~exact~ equivalent of the pre-trb 'block orphanage'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol recall how we even ended up with v, ' asciilifeform : 'it is obvious!11 how to arrange trb patches' errybodyelse : 'nah' )
asciilifeform: once it ~does~ exist, and fully displaces the duct tape, then yes i'ma start regrinding other things , and i expect then mod6 -- trb, etc
asciilifeform: apparently diana_coman has been hand-cranking it, sorta like asciilifeform's 1st yr of trb pre-vtron
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trb is 100% sha currently
asciilifeform: wouldn't go this far; dunno about mircea_popescu , but i'm presently connected to fleanode, trb, etc via tcp
asciilifeform: would be neato imho if we could bring 2.6 back to life trb-style.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595770 << alluded to in the more specified TRB.B/TRB.N prototype design.
asciilifeform: iirc was one of the moar recent 'trb-i' mircea_popescu threads
mircea_popescu: but yes, this is the other half -- need to bake trb nodes that won't get insta-banned by wot-trb on sight because they spew garbage
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-24#1853601 << this seems so to me. how about we wot the trb, rather than iptables it.
asciilifeform: sanely-behaving nodes (both trb and hypothetical trb-compatible heathens, which exist, or we'd see 0 blox) ought to be able to find ~and keep~ each other company
asciilifeform: imho a trb node ought to only advertise addrs that either a) part of the manual --addnode set the node was brought up with , or b) actually supplied a correct block in the recent past
asciilifeform: mod6: i was thinking of trinque's idea : suppose trb closed all open pipes if it finds that $configurable hours (e.g. 3) have passed without new blox
asciilifeform: trinque: the crapola-gluetrap steadystate in trb is what i was trying to kill with 'wires' experiment
asciilifeform: it's a network problem, not a trb one.
asciilifeform: in mostly unrelated lulz, there are apparently noads who shove a couple 100 MB (!) of bastard blox into a connected trb, prior to the latter throwing the ban switch ( because of the idjit shitoshi networking routine, actual disconnect happens a good 10-20sec after ban )
asciilifeform: i can do it with shell ( as quoted from trb experiment list earlier ) easily enuff. but there is also the ~reader~ side, who wants to verify continuity.
asciilifeform: which complete kit oughta be able to follow the continuity of e.g. trb to day1.
asciilifeform: i put 9000 hrs into reading trb, i do not have these 9000 to do it exactly same again nao.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: canhaz link to 'hey folx, phf's vtron out of beta, let's regrind trb etc nao' ?
asciilifeform: hey mod6 , didja ever switch to new format in trb ?
asciilifeform: btw one of the items i have in the deep freezers, is a trb with block db ripped out, replaced with (half-finished, sadly) ada mmap thing
asciilifeform: ( trb still has )
asciilifeform: i suspect the time to snapshot and pour cement, trb style, approaches.
asciilifeform: i can see an argument for keeping a cut-down version (perhaps trb's) around on ~some~ boxen , simply for curl-for-fetching-heathen-www, but that's about it.
asciilifeform: like it or not, 'faberge egg' is not a good weapon. to which i'll add that imho trb only recently (with 'aggression') graduated from 'faberge' status, previously noad required regular babysitting, and i've found that this is no longer so
asciilifeform: observe that trb in fact worx pretty well, even though mircea_popescu did not lay cable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: puzzler might have all sortsa interesting applications, possibly all the way to e.g. defraggings in a hypothetical trbi
asciilifeform: in other heathen lulz, https://archive.is/yUvwS << 2017-style shitfork , rebranded as a kind of faux-trb, 'Satoshi Vision' of... 'block size to 128 MB'
asciilifeform: mod6: hey, at least wolf d00d didn't go to whatevercon in vegas and present trb as own phd work or whatnot
asciilifeform: dredged up d00d via script that digs for refs to trb in heathendom. turns out, he hosts mirror of trb patches ( they dun seem to be discussed in articles tho, near as i can see )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: threading in trb is exactly variant of ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -- it's there because idjit had nfi how to do nonblocking i/o
mircea_popescu: (yes, i'm using this to raise the army that'll surgerize trb, of course, of course)
asciilifeform: lol exactly like trb?!
asciilifeform: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:52:40 << incidentally asciilifeform coupla yrs ago made failed attempt to replace 'boost' in trb with cpp11isms. principle obstacle was that gcc 4.9x doesn't really have 100% working cpp11.
asciilifeform: Mocky: cpp proggy always rides on libc. witness trb, the orig experiment with musl here.
asciilifeform: trb noad is up again as of nao.
asciilifeform: iirc Funkenstein remains the unbeaten recordsman there ( operated, at least at 1 point, a shitfork based on cribbed trb )
asciilifeform looks at 'ircd-ratbox' , somewhat astonished at the mass, coupla MB of src (moar than, e.g., trb)
asciilifeform: shinohai: can relax, nobody is out to eat you, and yer a+++ trb tester, my rating for instance stands.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf plox to update stable trb tree in http://btcbase.org/patches from mod6's
asciilifeform: trb's footprint problems are 100% on account of heapism.
asciilifeform: for thread completeness i must add that there are items in the standard (i.e. 'tasks') that i do not use in ffa, but intend to make use of in future ( i.e. trbi ) , and may be let live.
asciilifeform: ( hence why asciilifeform did not say 'wtf, why you lot distribute binariola, why not post just src like trb ' )
asciilifeform: heathens are , as i currently understand, so unspeakably stupid that 'stealing fixed code' is not to date ever observed, they re-break as soon as they touch. ( any heathens stole trb for the shitfork warz, other than funkenstein ? )
asciilifeform: for all i know, somewhere there exists a d00d who tried to build e.g. trb on a vax. and thinks asciilifeform is idjit, because it dun go. how's that skin off my back.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-15#1834748 << trb node is one of the few items that ~can't~ be backed up in the usual sense. because what you get if you just blindly copy is a shitup not a backup.
asciilifeform: a new node plugged directly in ( i.e. over lan ) to a working trb node, with 'aggression' should sync in week or 2.
asciilifeform: and whole concept of 'backing up trb' strikes me as wrongheaded -- the most effective backup is simply a 2nd node.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i've found that trb state can't be effectively backed up without stopping the node ( otherwise indices turn to barf . ) how do you do yours ? periodic stops ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-14#1834457 << ftr this is a ~very~ Bad Idea . for instance , i do not know in what starvation-cheapo hoster brazilish put his node, but if it was aws he will find that he cannot connect to ~any of the l1 folx's trb nodes, most people ban aws ip range whole
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-14#1834483 << just about anything with 2GB or more memory will work -- trb is not really cpu-bound . a 1TB disk will last you 3-5 yrs until fills. ideally ssd ( though the exact penalty from using mechanical disk is not yet known, see last night's thread ). if ssd -- i recommend samsung's, cheapo ssd typically burns after 1-2 yrs of trb wear.
asciilifeform: ( i vaguely suspect there exists even a 'herd immunity' of sorts, where aggressive trb helps other peers, of whatever config, stay in shape )
asciilifeform: afaik it doesn't auto-timestamp tho, iirc ben_vulpes , trinque , and possibly others, use linux system log to 'cheat' and get timestamps from trb
asciilifeform: i suggested it specifically to shinohai because he's apparently still experimenting with trb and afaik isn't tied up with anyffing else.
asciilifeform: ( point being, it may very well be feasible to run a reliable infrastructural trb noad on mech hdd. certainly worth test. )
asciilifeform: at any rate, the block processing delay was a kind of red herring, turned out that 'wait for rain to fall' was in fact the culprit in all ( known to asciilifeform ) cases of 'trb node won't stay in sync'
asciilifeform: notably , the patch started life as a general-purpose profiling of a whole buncha things in trb, but i ended up cutting out all but block timing, given as that was where something like 99% of ~active~ (i.e. as opposed to waiting for rain to fall, this was pre- aggression) cycles are spent
asciilifeform: diana_coman: reporting block r/w times currently requires pressing with the little patch that takes the times. ( it is not part of 'flagship' trb )
asciilifeform: i expect that soon n00b will be able to revv up a trb box simply by making use of trinque's builder and then 'emerge trb' or the like.
asciilifeform: rk3328-roc-cc + usb3sata snake + 1tb mech hdd -- might potentially make a working ~100bux trb node. worth a shot, shinohai , if you have a free hand.
asciilifeform: shinohai: prolly the best result re trb on rockchip would be with 'adult' samsung sata ssd via usb3-sata snake ( you can buy short one, that fits in box )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to bake a e.g. iron trbi, or the like, you'd need to init and talk to the sata card, this is not given in the example ( but not particularly difficult )
asciilifeform: while imho this is not a 'let's do this right nao' scheme, it is prolly the Right Thing in re 'trb-i' block propagation. no moar 'block withholding' nonsense. no reason why trbi should not own ionosphere the same way mircea_popescu projected bitcoin will 'own' mains current generation capacity.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform routinely misremembers having v 4y ago. prolly because we were already doing signed chains of patches since day0 of trb. hand-cranked v.
asciilifeform: i cut winblowz #ifdefolade out of trb because i did not read it and don't intend to.
asciilifeform: it is for this reason that asciilifeform cut most ( unfortunately not all, there is room for improvement! ) ifdefolade, out of trb.
asciilifeform: i abolished it in trb ( rotor ) , ave1 -- for gnat, and really ought to end with the logical conclusion, standard cuntoo musl/headers/gcc.
asciilifeform: there's no rsa in trb
asciilifeform: ( why? because asciilifeform doesn't like to crypto in any form, even as toy, on boxes without rng, and some of his trb dev machines at the time had none )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829715 << nah, trb is the bulkiest and most dangerous item on the table, it utterly can't be the exemplar at this early stage.
asciilifeform: the 'is it same trb' is much smaller problem than it seems, is quite resolvable mechanically ( as demonstrated in my http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html experiment , for instance )
mircea_popescu: much better than having to resolve the "is it same trb" problem. what's the drawback ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: at one time i tried to implement more or less same item you're making, and did the shiva thing, and in the end thought that whoever it was ( mircea_popescu ? ) who suggested that trb should simply eat ( and prompt to sign ) raw tx, generated externally via scripts, was right
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: funnily enuff, ~this very item~ is how asciilifeform got mired in attempt to bolt a lisp onto trb
asciilifeform: eliminate possibility of confusion with old , or reactor meltdown if new trb is plugged into a scriptolade harness meant for old, etc
mircea_popescu: mod6 backups are your friend! this whole trb stuff is a little friable.
mircea_popescu: if you try to send it with a lower fee than the level you set it to use it'll throw an error ; the rule for trb is to throw useless incomprehensible if not outright misguiding errors.
mircea_popescu: is this trb ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: trb is happy to ~eat~ anyonecanspendolade, just won't shit it
asciilifeform if it wasnt clear, highly disrecommends the continued use of shiva/tscheme for anyffing trb-related
asciilifeform: compared to, e.g., trb reactor dismantlement and rod replacement , re-creating the useful part of emacs is light work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but this is my point. "why are you using emacs when in fact trb will need ada scheme anyway and then you could just have a musl-gnat nerwmacs" ?
mircea_popescu: but no, it's not like it's verboten to stand up a trb, god forbid.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827994 << yes but this won't likely work here ; the dependency tree is like 10x trb's.
asciilifeform: Mocky: as you are prolly already beginning to understand from the l0gz, vtronics grew from trb work, which demanded 'measure not 7, but 7777 times, before cutting once', in the style of http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-15#922644
asciilifeform: Mocky: even quite small changes to trb, typically get months ( sometimes yrs.. ) of discussion, testing.
asciilifeform: Mocky: trb , roughly speaking , is a legacy item, in the same way as the icbm targeting comp and similar. i.e. a museum piece that gotta be kept in working order, rather than 'sexy, new' thing bubbling with development
asciilifeform: Mocky: on the list of serious problems in trbworld, it ranked somewhere near bottom.
asciilifeform: Mocky: the rpc thing is ugly and there were experiments re replacing it ( e.g. 'shiva', scheme interpreter bolted on to trb ) but this took a back seat to moar pressing matters ( control of memory footprint ; sane sync behaviour; coupla other items ) and to this day rpc is still there.
asciilifeform: i solved this same problem for trb -- i.e. building 100% musltronic proggy with '9000' deps , on a conventional box
asciilifeform: just like in earlier rotor-trb.
asciilifeform: just about errything that doesn't abuse some glibc-specific knob, runs 100% under muslism ( e.g. trb, which was the first proggy i personally built for musl, back in the http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000133.html days )
asciilifeform: situation quite reminiscent of bitcoin immediately prior to trb
asciilifeform: phf: this really calls for a ben_vulpes-on-trb-style archaeological dig
asciilifeform: by this logic could just as well omit trb from cuntoo
asciilifeform: ergo gotta have a trb-frozen emacs.
asciilifeform: ( granted, a defective 'replacement for trb' will give you a reactor meltdown, whereas a climacs-like abortion will simply create grumbling would-be users who revert back to emacsism )
asciilifeform: it's about on par with full replacement of trb.
asciilifeform: phf: slime aint exactly trb, it's, what, 50kB ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826979 << phf i for one would not be opposed to 'rewind to 19 and patch as-needed', like we did with trb.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the best object of comparison is imho trb.
asciilifeform: thing is quite ripe for the trb treatment.
asciilifeform: e.g. trb genesis , weighed ~900K , not so far.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pogo ? they're as usable as ever as soon as somebody gets trb into 256MB, lol
asciilifeform: and generally treasurer and instigator oughta be different people. as in the trb foundation.
asciilifeform: i did most of the early trb on that thing
asciilifeform: junkyard wars (e.g. trb, mp-wp) where one is stuck welding a tank from 5 zaporozhets and 3 lada carcasses, because that's what there is to work with, inevitably are heavyweight
asciilifeform: trb is, what, 25k-loc.
asciilifeform: phf: trb is, what, 800kB, and already imho 'weighs' ~10+ yrs worth of study to fully grasp
asciilifeform: certainly nogood for trb.
asciilifeform: ( c2 feels, to asciilifeform , even 'longer ago', epochally -- even such a basic thing as trb, say, did not yet exist )
mircea_popescu: for instance : bitcoinfs may be found useful by someone storing flac muzak. they'd then copy it from its original tmsr-os / trb tree, and put it in their gp-os / torrent tree.
mircea_popescu: but should eg, bitcoin-fs be written, then yes trb will exist in the same tree as bitcoin-fs. and should we go as low as tmsr-os, then yes, tmsr-os as genesis will have bitcoin-fs patchzone and then trb patchzone after that. and people wanting to use bitcoinfs for something else can just press up to there and no further. and projects wanting to import bitcoinfs but not trb will just build off that height of tree, and continue
asciilifeform: douchebag: you did ~only~ the minimal interpretation of what was asked. like a schoolboy. instead of, e.g., annotating this list with 'is this an actual vuln in actual physical trb'
asciilifeform: and i still don't seen any vulns in anything that actually gets linked to AND CALLED FROM trb
mircea_popescu: trb, also, ball of cpp.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-08#1811085 << minigame would host it ; so would deedbot. you saw the trb build style, specifically http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html (the parts where it goes 'curl http://deedbot.org/deed-430460-2.txt > rotor.tar.gz.asc')
asciilifeform: lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-05#1810194 << exactly it. your musl gcc never built, so trb has nothing to be built ~with~. you must find out why it did not build. but i recommend burning your heathen linux to the ground and using danielpbarron's, or trinque's, or mine, gentoo recipe
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the only thing preventing trb on the existing pilotplant rockchippen is the small disk.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: RC will trbate, if you give it large disk
asciilifeform: lobbes, other trbists : another thing that worx, is the combo of pizarro node piped through a cheapo heathen relay-only box.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like to get a sense of what gets douchebag's pulse going, is all. cuz trb evidently doesnt
asciilifeform: ~then~ builds trb.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only list, but full set of signed tarballs, on trb.org
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, afaik there isn't anywhere a complete list of specified versioning for trb, nor ever was.
asciilifeform: douchebag: pleeez consider at least attempting to read the trb materials at therealbitcoin.org ?
asciilifeform: mod6: the included illustration was to the effect of 'what if trb had been made using this type of vtron, from genesis to present day' .
asciilifeform: mod6: the press (using ordinary v) creates a text file, 'trb'. which then is 'untarred', if you will, to 'makefiles' .
asciilifeform: iirc this was a headache in early trb days
mircea_popescu: mod6, was a while ago. but anyway, nevermind, you'll do all this later. get tx tooling into trb, by all means.
asciilifeform: and the 'tldr' of it is: if you download the patches/sigs in the example, and press to any particular one, you get a file 'trb', which, when put through included proggy 'txt2dir' results in a bitwise-correct (i.e. bit-identical to classical tree that we have for trb) press.
asciilifeform: ( if you grab the attachments of the ml post, and follow the instructions, you get bitwise-identical trb on every step of the ladder , vs the respective trb at that step in the orig tree . )
asciilifeform: mod6: considering that the example i gave ~is~ the totality of the trb tree, i'm a bit puzzled, what was it you tried ?
asciilifeform: in other quasi-noose, heathen node walker ( https://archive.li/FHKym today's snapshot ) reports 11 advertised trb nodez, with 9 of'em at tip-top of currentchain . iirc of the 9, 2 are actually 1 BingoBoingo box. still seems like 'aggression' worx pretty well.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-21#1804340 << approximately none. trb ran without trusted node list for years.
mircea_popescu: think about it, if 500 nodes want to talk to bbistan, each local trb will talk to 500/n
mircea_popescu: consider also that especioally b is problematic as trb isn';t ~really~ intended to be used in a home environment ; and racked servers may not provide your video whatever.
mircea_popescu: afaik trb comes cli only ; you can add a gui but a) you'd have to write it and b) it'd necessarily introduce dependencies.
mircea_popescu: now, kako for all his weird was certainly technically competent, so it's not the case that "there lay a trb in the rain".
asciilifeform: it resembles 'nano ecc' which at 1 point asciilifeform tried to port to trb
mircea_popescu: running trb offers a firm guarantee that you will have your coins perpetually. running the various usg-sponsored "i can't believe it's not bitcoin" margerine offers a firm guarantee that a) any time you spend with them will be wasted on a long enough timeline and b) any resources you spend with them will be worthless on a long enough timeline. so bear that in mind.
asciilifeform: trinque: theoretically 'every private has a marshal's baton in his knapsack', but realistically it is not esp. likely that 'popping trb' had to wait for this 1 d00d to turn 19 or what he was.
mircea_popescu: the republic's de facto moving towards hardware specialization, there's on one hand the very heavy cpu machines (of which sha miners are a subset, phuctor is another, and so on), and then the sort of thing like this, typified by a trb node machine.
asciilifeform: (trb, buildroot-kernel, userlands)
asciilifeform: chipset is a 'rockchip', i ported trb to it in 2015 iirc.
mircea_popescu: douchebag alf lands in the oriental republic sometime mid month ; you'll get your login then, an' your first task will be to get trb up on it ; and the tasks 2 throught 999 will be to have fun.
mircea_popescu: ah so could actually run trb np
mircea_popescu: douchebag i'll get you a sever once the pizarro folk unwrap their heads enough to actually have one on offer. so you can tinker on gentoo, trb etc and get out of the "vps" bs hell.
asciilifeform: when i was actively trbing, i handled 'want p1 + p2 + ... p_n ' by hand-copy and producing p_n+1
asciilifeform: phf: can you give a concrete press head for current-trb that will barf if the lateral-walk is removed ?
mircea_popescu: or possibly everyone regarded trb as a messy pile which isn't properly v-ified even today. like mpi, or like gentoo
mircea_popescu: terrible idea to do it on trb. no, you want to do it on something small and simple, speciifcallty because "it's not hard to regrind existing tree"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there's quite likely enuff coin just in trb hotwallets, to buy a flotilla. and if you can get to it, it's as yours as your own nose, nobody could do a thing about it. so wtf are you doing fucking with php.
asciilifeform: for that matter, why does douchebag settle for small change of www ? a remote ex for trb or even prb will easily bring in enuff loot to buy a battleship. without having to convince anybody, i'll note, of anything.
asciilifeform: possibly funnily , early in trb life , asciilifeform on a lark put it through a $maxint scamolade 'cpp security auditor' proggy that the imperial slavegalley he was working in, had bought. the result -- unsuprisingly to tuned-in folx, i expect -- was so unremarkable that i did not bother to post it.
asciilifeform: as discussed, re e.g. trb.
asciilifeform: i dun think more than a week has gone by, at any point since trb first proclaimed , when trb was not mentioned in some way
asciilifeform: douchebag: why limited to 'web framework' ? if you consider yerself fit for work in hard/unsolved problems -- why not go and find remotely exploitable boojum for trb
asciilifeform: trinque : out of curiosity : do you see, e.g., asciilifeform's amputation of all microshit #ifdef... crapola from trb, as mistake ? 'fails to strategically engage the world-as-it-is' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'rockchip' rk series. asciilifeform ported trb to these in 2015.
asciilifeform: (why, is separate q : perhaps a testing trb, and a classical trb ? )
asciilifeform: i also using for years. but suppose you wanted to run two instances of trb on one box, on separate ips.
asciilifeform: quasi-relatedly, seems like BingoBoingo has already not 1 but 2 working and synced trb nodez
asciilifeform: iirc fella mostly lurks, but quietly runs a trb node, obtained a FG ( but afaik not yet written any study of it, no blog yet ) , is literate tho
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: post to the trb ml, sort what it's for
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-07#1782339 << sadly, i dun see how bbisp could provide platter. for one thing, it takes way the fuck more power. for the other, it simply dun work for one of the more important republican apps, teh trb. it's just... not there.
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah, i have no clear model in my head of what's going on. but, i expect most load other than trb will be apache or something like it. and in my experience higher clock beats more cores once you have more than 4 or so, there.
asciilifeform: ( y'know, exactly like whoever wants to , can mirror trb universe )
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